Linking Up

A quote I am very fond of.

The complete atheist is more respectable than the man who is indifferent.  He is on the last rung preceding perfect faith.

Albert Camus, The Possessed, pg. 132

I’ve posted the above quote here in the past.  I do so again this morning after reading Roderick T. Long’s Theism and Atheism Reconciled.  From Long’s post.

I think the disagreement between theism and atheism is in a certain sense illusory – that when one tries to sort out precisely what theists are committed to and precisely what atheists are committed to, the two positions come to essentially the same thing, and their respective proponents have been fighting over two sides of the same shield.

Update:  On a related note, Michele at A Small Victory. Link to Michele’s post via Dean’s World.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/02 at 07:01 AM

  1. I really must question your judgement on this one.

    Atheism and theism are quite opposite in most respects.  The only thing they share in common is a belief without evidence.  Those who respect this, but don’t respect a rational acknowledgement of a lack of evidence, have their priorities backwards. 

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  03/02  at  07:39 AM

  2. J.R. - I respect your comment, but, I must ask, what are you specifically questioning in regards to my judgment as it relates to this post?  My fondness for the Camus quote, or my linking to Long’s post?  I do not think I offered any actual judgement in the post itself.

    Posted by John Venlet  on  03/02  at  08:58 AM

  3. Roderick T. Long: I think the disagreement between theism and atheism is in a certain sense illusory – that when one tries to sort out precisely what theists are committed to and precisely what atheists are committed to, the two positions come to essentially the same thing, and their respective proponents have been fighting over two sides of the same shield.

    I read The Long Article you linked to, and while I agree with what Mr. long is saying on one level, I think he is completely wrong on another level.

    For starters I doubt very seriously that the vast majority of Atheists would agree with Mr. Long’s assessment that Atheists are committed to the same general position that Theists are. In fact, in my experience the vast majority of Atheists became Atheists due to a latent hostility or perceived injustice from Christianity. In other words, the vast majority of Atheists appear to be individuals who have over-reacted against Christianity. Their Atheism has very little to do with “God” per sae.

    But the BIG difference between Atheists and Theists is that Theists believe that there are always ultimate consequences for their actions, while Atheists deny this assertion.

    I believe that this difference manifest in behavior and attitude in a very easily discernable and distinct way. 
    ———————————————-
    J.R.: The only thing they [Atheists & Theists] share in common is a belief without evidence.

    You think so?

    I don’t perceive a lack of evidence so much as I perceive a lack of consistent explanation for the evidence by a lot of individuals.

    J.R.: Those who respect this, but don’t respect a rational acknowledgement of a lack of evidence, have their priorities backwards.

    I don’t suppose you want to elaborate on that?

    Posted by The Serpent  on  03/02  at  09:54 AM

  4. The Serpent: “But the BIG difference between Atheists and Theists is that Theists believe that there are always ultimate consequences for their actions, while Atheists deny this assertion.”

    That’s a BIG generalization, Serp.  Your assumption that all theists are alike is almost as ridiculous as your assertion that all atheists are alike.

    Many theists of the xtian sect believe they can be forgiven for their “sins” by Jesus.  Therefore Ted Bundy can “find Jesus” in prison and be “forgiven” and go to heaven, without doing anything to compensate his victims.  Many theists use religion to avoid responsibility for their actions; it’s much easier to beg forgiveness of some “personal god” you can talk to inside your head than it is to earn the forgiveness of the person you’ve actually hurt.

    One thing that can be said with certainty is that since most atheists don’t believe that consequences are doled out by a deity in some “afterlife”.

    This atheist knows that all actions have consequences, and that those consequences are delivered by the objective universe, and that we are accountable here and now not in some mythical hereafter.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  03/03  at  09:09 AM

  5. Qiwi: That’s a BIG generalization, Serp.

    I disagree. I think it is simply a statement of the obvious (2 + 2 = 4).

    Qiwi: Your assumption that all theists are alike is almost as ridiculous as your assertion that all atheists are alike.

    All Theists have something in common. That is what makes them all Theists.

    All Atheists have something in common (other than being langauge butchers). That is what makes them all Atheists.

    Qiwi: Many theists of the xtian sect believe they can be forgiven for their “sins” by Jesus.

    That is true; however I’d point out that those who believe this forgiveness is automatic and completely uncondictional are in the minority.

    Qiwi: Therefore Ted Bundy can “find Jesus” in prison and be “forgiven” and go to heaven, without doing anything to compensate his victims.

    That may be how an Atheists perceives Christianity; however, my experience tells me that most Christians would see it entirely differently.

    You see the problem is that a lot of Atheists seem to have a bitter and innate hatred of the concept of “God”. So for an Atheist it is easy to imagine “God” as some kind of drooling moron, just like they perceive the majority of “God’s” followers.

    But in the mind of the Theist “God” is anything but a moron. To a Theist “God” is a superior consciousness by definition.

    Qiwi: Many theists use religion to avoid responsibility for their actions; it’s much easier to beg forgiveness of some “personal god” you can talk to inside your head than it is to earn the forgiveness of the person you’ve actually hurt.

    That is also true, but I would point out in the same way that not all Atheists fully comprehend Quantum mechnics, or Einstein’s theory of relativity, not all Theists fully comprehend and precisely follow the theories of their professed “Religion”.

    Furthermore you also have individuals who deliberately mislabel themselves because they perceive a benefit in presenting themselves as a Theist. For example, a lot of prisoners/convicts (as you mentioned) pretend to find “religion” when they are in prision, because they know that it will help them get an earlier parole, and it gives the appearance of repentence.

    Qiwi: One thing that can be said with certainty is that since most atheists don’t believe that consequences are doled out by a deity in some “afterlife”.

    I never mentioned a deity doling out “penalties”. I simply stated that Atheists don’t believe in ultimate consequences for their actions, and that Theists do.

    Unless you want to assert that what is in your head has nothing to do with your actions I would say that it is clear that Individuals behave based on what they sincerely believe.

    But I do realize that this fact is extremely “inconvenient” for the Atheists.

    Posted by The Serpent  on  03/03  at  10:30 AM

  6. [continued ...]

    Qiwi: This atheist knows that all actions have consequences, and that those consequences are delivered by the o bjective universe, and that we are accountable here and now not in some mythical hereafter.

    Sure, but if you can get away with it in the here and now then essentially you have gotten away with it forever, because once you “cease to exist” there are No consequences from that point forward.

    You see a Theists believes that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent entity is observing him and his behavior at all times, and that his behavior matters today, and it matters tomorrow, and it matters a million years from now. And it matters even when it appears that no one is observing.

    But an Atheist is under no such illusion. All he has to worry about is what is beneficial for him in the here and now but only when he is being observed by another entity that can potentially reward or punish him. And if he can benefit by some action which harms another, then so long as he can avoid the conseqeunces until he has ceased to exist he has avoided them forever.

    To an Atheists it doesn’t matter whether you were the worst raping murdering,thief who ever lived, or the most kind, loving, and generous saint who ever lived, in the end we all end up with the exact same Fate – we cease to exist. Your good deeds or bad deeds are irrelevant because in the end this existence is completely meaningless. All that matters – all that is important – is living for your own selfish sense of benefit and happiness. That is the goal of the Atheist, deep down in his heart.

    Posted by The Serpent  on  03/03  at  10:31 AM

  7. The Serpent: You see a Theists believes that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent entity is observing him and his behavior at all times, and that his behavior matters today, and it matters tomorrow, and it matters a million years from now. And it matters even when it appears that no one is observing.

    That’s just infantile carrot-and-stick morality dressed up in fancy clothes.  You’ve just admitted that the reason you do good rather than evil is because you think somebody is watching you all the time.

    The Serpent: To an Atheists it doesn’t matter whether you were the worst raping murdering,thief who ever lived, or the most kind, loving, and generous saint who ever lived, in the end we all end up with the exact same Fate – we cease to exist.

    More outlandish generalization—is there anything else in your repertoire?

    You think that because the destination is the same, the trip is irrelevant?

    One’s good and bad deeds are not irrelevant simply because one will cease to exist someday.  The effects of one’s deeds persist in other people and in the environment.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  03/03  at  11:28 AM

  8. Qiwi: That’s just infantile carrot-and-stick morality dressed up in fancy clothes.

    Precisely.

    Otherwise known as the principle of Cause and Effect which I fully realize is completely contradictory to your professed Religious beliefs.

    Qiwi: You’ve just admitted that the reason you do good rather than evil is because you think somebody is watching you all the time.

    I think you have misunderstood.

    All individuals act based solely on the notion of postive and negative reinforcement, otherwise known as rewards, and punishment. In other words you either do something or do not do it because you perceive there is a benefit to doing it, or you perceive harm in not doing it.

    Cause and Effect.

    Despite your implications, nothing happens “magically”, or “supernaturally”, or “randomly” and for no reason what-so-ever. There is always a logical reason; always a comprehensible cause.

    For you, if you can benefit at my expense—by harming me (or lying to me)—and you perceive that the chance you are caught is zero or very close to zero, then there is nothing peventing you from benefiting at my expense.

    But to a Theist, he knows that it is impossible for him to ever benefit at my expense – at least not ultimately. To the Theist, my soul is potentially as immortal as his. So to the theist there is no escape from his bad Karma in the unfathomable future.

    To an Atheist (for all intent and purpose) the future does not exist; at least not as a real place that the Atheist will ever experience for himself.

    Posted by The Serpent  on  03/03  at  02:15 PM

  9. [continued ...]

    Qiwi: You think that because the destination is the same, the trip is irrelevant?

    After the trip ends?

    Yeah – that is exactly what I am saying. Are you asserting that I am in error? Perhaps you can explain it to me?

    Qiwi: One’s good and bad deeds are not irrelevant simply because one will cease to exist someday.

    How exactly is anything relevant to YOU once you have ceased to exist?

    Or are you trying to assert that your self-awareness persist after you have ceased to exist? That seems a blatent contradiction.

    Or are you simply stating that Atheists have no regard for the future in the same way that they have no regard (or recollection of) the past?

    Qiwi: The effects of one’s deeds persist in other people and in the environment.

    Ahhh, so you are claiming to be an Altruist now? You are telling me that you live your own existence purely out of concern for the well being of “other people” and “the environment”?

    And here I thought you were mainly concerned with what is beneficial and harmful to you personally. I would have thought that was what made YOU … YOU?

    Besides once you cease to exist in what way do “other people” and “the environment” even exist? From your point-of-view they won’t exist any longer – will they? In fact, when you cease to exist, isn’t it going to be exactly the same (from your point of view) as if the entire universe has ceased to exist?

    Maybe those “other people” and “the universe” don’t exist right now – did you ever consider that possibility? Maybe me and everything else you perceive are merely delusions (like your dreams) generated by your “subconscious mind”? Maybe the person reading this post is the only consciousness that actually exists and there is no “universe” per sae?

    That’s why you can benefit at my expense with a clear conscience. Deep down You already know that I’m just a figment of your imagination.

    Posted by The Serpent  on  03/03  at  02:16 PM

  10. Serp, do you have any debate tactics at your command other than repetition, Strange Capitalization, exaggeration, false generalization, and putting words in other’s mouths?

    I’m curious: are you male or female?  I ask not because I think it relates to your debate style, but just so I can refer to you with the correct pronouns.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  03/03  at  03:24 PM

  11. Qiwi: Serp, do you have any debate tactics at your command other than repetition, Strange Capitalization, exaggeration, false generalization, and putting words in other’s mouths?

    I don’t blame you Qiwi, it is simply your Fate, the way you are.

    And if I was in your place, I have no doubt I would be trying to convince everyone that my beliefs had nothing to do with my actions either. It seems insane to my mind, but I am absolutely certain it makes perfect “logical” sense inside your head.

    Qiwi: I’m curious: are you male or female?  I ask not because I think it relates to your debate style, but just so I can refer to you with the correct pronouns.

    I’m a hard left-spin (male). Jonathan informs me that you are right-spin (female)? I apologize for the error.

    Posted by The Serpent  on  03/03  at  04:23 PM

  12. Ah, you do have one more tactic, the non-sequiter!

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  03/03  at  05:20 PM

  13. Qiwi: Ah, you do have one more tactic, the non-sequiter!

    Ohh gee, a mystic who believes she has magic “free will” powers is accusing me of logical fallacy.

    Yeah, because your beliefs have no effect on your actions.

    Keep talking Honey ...

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  03/04  at  09:33 AM

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